Breeding Performance or Gameness?

Recently I was discussing with some friends about breeding practices and just dogs in general, when we got on to the discussion of gameness or performance, and what one looks for when breeding. I think everyone could agree that even if you dont support or agree with matching, anyone who owns an APBT and knows the history of the breed, wants a well bred dog. Now some of you want a dog that looks good, not one nessecarily for performance, (weight pull, hog hunting, etc) so this discussion really isnt for you, but for those of us that are looking for certain other qualities in our dogs (Bolio, Jeep, Chinaman, Frisco, Redboy/Jocko, Honeybunch etc.) we are looking for a quality breeder, which are becoming harder and harder to come by. However, since the Animal Cruelty Act was enacted, the certain "testing" of those dogs is no longer used, (for the most part) so how does one choose their breedings, and which dogs to use in their program if the only way to test them is illegal? The reason I keep using matching as an example, is because as far as I know, there is now other contest in which a dog can prove his gameness. IF there is anything that any of you know please let me know. But back to the discussion. Many dogs have been great performers and outclassed their opponents before deep gameness was ever tested. So now a days it seems like more and more people are breeding for these excellent athletes that can finish before the game even starts. If that's always the case then is the APBT going to lose the one thing that sets it apart from all other animals, gameness-the will to overcome insurmountable odds?

assuming ur not a cop, ill answer this the best i can...some of the legends that are major lines are based on werent even proven for gameness simply because they were HEAVY punishers. chinaman and zebo were good examples. they destroyed everything and from what ive been told(i obiously wasnt there) gameness wasnt a factor simply cuz of their hard mouth ways. nowadays if ya want a tested dog, you either do the dirty work yourself(which i dont recommend), you find someone willing to let you in on what they have goin on in their yard(good luck again) or you buy from overseas where it is still a common practice. and that is an expensive deal bringing a dog into the country. no, i dont believe any other event will preserve our breed in its true form(hunting, or weightpulling)....but has anyone ever saw an APBT tangle w/ a big badger? now that is the closest ive ever saw to a TRUE gametest...them boogers wanna fight! overall, i do believe our breed is on the downhill slide w/current paranoia and legislation. cherish the ones you have, 20 years from now they will probably all be gone in the original form. what will be left is essentially gonna be am. staffs.

Well put woody

Thanks for your input, and that's what I figured the answer was going to be. It really is a shame that the dog we all love is going to be gone. Just saddens me the these amazing animals get such a bad rap. Woody if you dont mind me asking what line is/are your dogs?

good reply, woody.
i saw this thread last night, and i wasn't quite sure on how to reply to it=tricky subject matter....
yeah, imo, there's ONLY ONE way to test for gameness, [] and pre 1976, you could actually witness it without worry. (yeah, i'm old!!!)
nowadays, yup, as mentioned, you go over seas to where it still IS legal to test them, and purchase a dog, or, if that's not an option, HOPE that the dog's papers aren't hung and pray that what you see is what you get (ped-wise) and that the blood written WILL be a factor in the dog you acquire
or
you take your chances .... but NOT gunna touch that one.

I know that its a touchy subject, but in all the books that I read and all the people that I talk to. Gameness is the unattainable attribute to the APBT. That's what is the defineing quality that sets them apart from the mutts. It just seems like the one thing breeders have tried to keep secret and keep on their yards is further and futher from what people are getting. I want to do what I can to save the breed, just seems that it's impossible.

MidwestFire wrote:

Gameness is the unattainable attribute to the APBT. That's what is the defineing quality that sets them apart from the mutts.

indeed it does. but since we can no longer test for it due to the laws, more and more people who own game bred dogs fear testing reprocussions (rightfully so) and are steering away from it.
basically, "don't do the crime, if you can't do the time".

I realize that, just dont know how we can save the breed? So pretty much the AMERICAN repeat AMERICAN pit bull terrier, is going to go to foriegn countries where they are going to take our dogs and breed them how they want. DOsent seem fair, but what can you do. It's the world were in. Thanks for all your input.

GO OVERSEAS? Thats borderline retarded. We have the best dogs in the world right here, why the hell would you wanna waste your money like that? Even when it was legal, it was done in seclusion, just like it will till the end of the earth. Keep quiet and to your close friends and hope for the best. And woody, you have some of the best bred(in my opinion)gamebred dogs on this board, and I know you didnt travel over seas to get em. take care, and good luck.

I was never saying that the overseas dogs were better then the American dogs. I'm in complete agreement that the most well bred dogs in the world are from and still in the USA. And yes it'll be in seclusion for the most part, but Ive been on some forums that have the races right there for everyone to see, because it is legal, and as stated earlier the only way to know is the test, which is no longer very reasonable in the USA. Like woody said the way the breed is going in the states is the amstaffs and IMO the bullies. Niether of which should be in the same category as the APBT. Just was curious on how people would breed the dogs, I"m assuming they use the weight pull, temperment (which i would consider part of the gameness of the APBT), hang time, boar hunting etc, to determine which stock is up to the breeding par. But since were on the subject, do you consider the breeders of today, who are breeding the true to form APBT, do they have better dogs now, or 30 years ago, or 60 years ago?

I like what everyone has to say about the subject, theres only one true way to test a dogs gameness. But you could maybe get 10 hogs are 5 or 6 badgers on one dog but who is going to go though or put there dogs though that kind of punishment. I think if you really watch and learn from your dogs grow from a pup you can pretty much see which are worthy to breed when its there time. And on performance,its all in how you bring them up!!! Training, diet, etc...... My dogs are game enough for me and there overall performance can not be touched....just my opinion!!!

That is the opposite of the right way to think native.

But you could maybe get 10 hogs are 5 or 6 badgers on one dog but who is going to go though or put there dogs though that kind of punishment.
Thats ridiculous on more levels than I can comment on. Nobody do this, it will do nothing but get your dogs tore up and hurt the badger population-jk-nobody has badgers layin around. just had to add that-

I think if you really watch and learn from your dogs grow from a pup you can pretty much see which are worthy to breed when its there time.
If that were true, game testing would'nt even need to be done cause you would already know which were the good ones. Thats impossible dude, nobody can tell by your method, it is so un-true how could you say that.

And on performance,its all in how you bring them up!!! ------Once again, thats so not the truth. It is in your imagination, stop eating paint chips man.

Training, diet, etc.....-------Neither will determine the dogs ability. Health yes. Ability no. Where do you get your info from?


My dogs are game enough for me and there overall performance can not be touched....just my opinion!!!-------------Thats because they never have been tested. I would love if there were more like you in my neck of the woods because I could give Bert Clouse's 15 year winning record a run.
I'm, off my rant, but how do you own dogs when you know nothing about them?
I recommend any book on pitbullstuff.com, but you may wanna start with pitbulls for dummies.

Well Smoke go read more books online and enter your dogs in shows because thats about all the knowledge you have about real pitdogs anyway, And queit blowing SMOKE out your @$$.

I agree with smoke, the idea of 10 hogs or 5-6 badgers on ONE dog is ridiculous. Theres only one way to test a dog and that's in a 'race'. Until you know how your dog performs for real you have no idea what to breed for, or if you just 'feel' which ones are worth breeding your doing the breed a diservice. and your dogs may be "game" in your mind, but again only one way to know.

SMOKE I AGREE IF YOU KNOW YOUR DOGS YOU DONT HAVE TO FIGHT THEM AND PUTTING 5-6 BADGERS ON YOUR DOG WEL THAT IS*******ALTHOUGH I HUNT WILD BORE WITH 2 OFF MY PITS.

NATIVE, how about you and I go hunting and then I can show you what way is up and what way is down. Pick your legend in your own mind, Ill bring my game dog and we will see whats what.

What ever you meant i dont know.By now you should know that i dont ever fight my pits

backyard breeders have ruined the pitbull. thay breed everyheat and sell to every
goober that has the money. i bet the old timers didn't sell many dogs at the peak
of the hobby. now adays someone gets a pair,breed them and sell at flea markets and
any other they can peddle a pup. people buy pits to look "cool" not realizing the need
to keep these dogs controled and not running loose. their living arrangements change and they
turn the dog loose or leave them at a pound. running loose they get into trouble.

JUST GOING THRU THIS,FIRST A BADGER WON'T SCRATCH THERE IS ONLY 1 WAY TO GAME TEST..AS FAR AS I'M AWARE,.....IF YOU KEEP 10-100 HOUND'S YOUR GOING TO SELL PUP'S TO OTHER LIKE-MINDED PEOPLE/FRIEND'S..OR ELSE YA HAVE TO CULL BECAUSE YA HAVE TO FEED THE REST OF YOUR YARD.BUT I DO'NT' UNDER-STAND A-BT PEOPLE BREEDING ANYTHING THEY HAVE AND TRYING TO MAKE A QUICK BUCK.THERE WASTEING THERE TIME OVER HERE SMALL BULL'S AND OTHER SMALL TERRIERS WERE GAME TESTED WITH BADGER BUT THE BADGER WAS ALL-WAYS GIVEN THE ADVANTAGE IN THE GAME TRIAL'S...IT WAS THEN OUT-LAWED BY THE SHOW PEOPLE BECAUSE THERE DOG'S WERE ONLY BENCH CH'S..WHILE OTHER'S HELD DUAL CHAMPIONSHIP BOTH FEILD AND BENCH...ANY-WAY THAT'S ENOUGH OF MY RAMBLEING ON FOR NOW...B....